Ocean Protection Politics Transcript Released
Jacob Collier 0:11
My name is Jacob Collier, and I am a musician, multi instrumentalist, songwriter, producer, human being based on the face of the earth.
We were on a Greenpeace trip the Arctic Sunrise, and we were purveying the waters of Svalbard and making music out on a little iceberg, a pontoon in amongst a magnificent glacier. And it was unforgettable and remarkable and deeply profound for me.
And I was there with Aurora, who is one of my favourite human beings and artists and songwriters and general spirits of the human race. It was very, very special to share the adventure with her.
Ever since I was very, very small, I’ve just been deeply inspired by the world.
I think I am made of the world as we all are, and we are forged with the same cloth. You could say I just had a real, always, just a real connection with the enormity of the outdoor world in many, many ways. And I think I often write music about that, and I just revere it so deeply. And I’ve also always revered Greenpeace for its just total tenacity and crucial brazenness with being outspoken about what matters in protecting our magnificent world that it’s ever so fragile, even though it’s magnificent, when I heard about this opportunity to jump aboard a ship and head to the Arctic, it was just like a no absolute no brainer. There’s nothing that could have got in the way of that for me, and I’m so, so thrilled and honoured that I was able to come aboard amazing.
So before we set off on this adventure, I was picturing it for what’s this going to be like. And I certainly imagine big ice burgs and blocks of, you know, ice and freezing cold weather and things like that. And the truth of the matter is that the glacier, though stunning and huge, was not of the enormity of the size I was expecting. And so it was. It looked almost fragile, I suppose.
And then again, I think it made me feel very fragile, to be sitting within its within its ranks, and next to it making music that itself was quite fragile, and it was just an experience of making music that I’ve never I’ve just never had that before, that feeling before, the thing of floating for one is not a one I feeling, I usually put with the feeling of being within music and making music and instruments. The upright piano I was very patient. The keys did begin to begin to sort of stiffen up and freeze by the end of the night, but it was, yeah, a very, very magnificent place to make music, very, very humbling place to make music. And in a sense, had a deep, like a fragility to it, as well as its utter magnificence and sort of irrefutability. And I think, yeah, me and Aurora had a very kind of unforgettable time just hanging out with this massive glacier. It was wild. It’s always a challenge to frame a song in a way that you’ve never done it before. I would say, in a sense, the most interesting part of the challenge was the hybridization of these two songs, which are very different from each other. Really, they’re kind of in a similar harmonic world, but rhythmically, they’re very different. So we had to kind of just build a very convincing enough bridge, and then kind of have elements of both songs going at the same time. I just remember when we were rehearsing on the on the ship with the guitar and and there was a moment where it just clicked. It was like, hang on, this is going to work. This is going to be going to be great. That was a very exciting moment. And I think the other, another just kind of logistical challenge of the day was we did 11 takes in total. There were seven with a with camera people on board the pontoon, and then four with just drones. That process, kind of it demanded of us to continuously reinvent the songs, because another of the kind of musicians who can sit down and play the same thing twice in a row, it just doesn’t happen like that. Yeah. It was a very interesting kind of dynamic challenge to try to remain part of the songs and remain faithful to them, but also keep on discovering new things so we wouldn’t get bored or tired or whatever. It felt like. We landed on some pretty special moments. So a moment at the very end where we kind of let out this big scream and go and scream together. And that felt really good on the iceberg here. There’s an echo of the scream around, yeah. I mean, talk about moments I’ll never forget that was that’s up there with the best. Da.
Hannah Stitfall 4:45
This is oceans, life underwater, a series exploring our oceans and the fascinating life within them. I’m Hannah stitful. I’m a zoologist, wildlife filmmaker and broadcaster, and I’m bringing you along as I learn everything I can about.
Our watery planet.
This week, we’re looking forward at the future of our oceans, the campaigns fighting to protect them, and the political challenges threatening their health. This episode began with the beautiful voice of Jacob Collier sharing his recent performance in Svalbard with Greenpeace, and today we’ll be exploring why campaigns like Jacobs are so vital for the ocean’s future.
You have to have hope, and you have to continue to doing it, and you have to continue to try and engage as much as possible, because if you don’t have hope, then nothing is going to change. And we live in a democracy, and they are supposed to represent us, and if they don’t listen to us, then we make them listen to us.
Greenpeace has been threatened and jailed and sued and even bombed. We don’t stop corporations and governments come after us because we’re effective, and we’re not going to stop just because there’s a new WADA be dictator.
This is Ocean’s life underwater.
Today, I’m joined by Megan Randalls, the global political lead for the high seas at Greenpeace International, we’ll be unpacking the political landscape surrounding our oceans and exploring the consequences if we miss the 30 by 30 deadline.
Megan Randles 6:21
Hi, Megan. How are you? Okay? I’m really great. Thank you. Thank you for having me pleasure. Now for our listeners, could you just introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what your role is? So I’m Megan. I’m the global political lead on one of Greenpeace’s main ocean campaigns. So Greenpeace is currently trying to campaign to get the global ocean treaty ratified, and my role is to set the political strategy, monitor the political developments, and most importantly, I coordinate and learn from Greenpeace’s whole network of political campaigners that we have in our offices across the world to try and get this treaty ratified, because it’s something that affects all of us. Big job then, yeah,
Hannah Stitfall 7:04
it’s very kind. Now, we explored the treaty a little bit last season, but for anyone who doesn’t know, can you tell us a little bit about what the global ocean treaty hopes to achieve?
Megan Randles 7:16
So it’s the first time that the kind of international community will have the tools to be able to actually protect the high seas or the areas beyond national jurisdiction. And what that means is the areas in most parts 200 miles out of from land. And what’s really fascinating about it is it’s kind of countries coming together to try and protect parts of the ocean that doesn’t belong to anyone at the moment, and they have been really, really vulnerable up until now, because there hasn’t been a really kind of holistic, global governance system for this. And what also is really exciting is that it also kind of embeds justice into ocean governance, which hasn’t really been around yet so far. So that’s really, really exciting, but we Yeah. We called it one of the biggest conservation victories of all time, at the time, and it was real, a triumph of multilateralism. But I guess the problem is, is that, you know, we celebrated it then, but it’s still a piece of paper until it’s entered into force, so actually, it’s not protecting anything yet. So that’s why we still need to kind of continue the campaign on it. And the high seas, as you said, they’re about 200 miles off of coastlines, and no one looks after them. So what sort of things have been happening on the high seas that are bad for the environment?
Well, I kind of the threats to the high seas at the moment, they’re cumulative, so I guess it’s overfishing, destructive fishing practices all kind of made worse by climate change and pollution acidification. So it’s basically there are a lot of different threats. In that context, there’s a new threat potentially coming down the way called deep sea mining, which is really, really scary, and we want to stop that happening before it even starts. Yeah.
So there’s a lot of different threats. But the thing about the treaty which is so good is that it hopefully will look at it in a holistic way, and try and fix it from more of a holistic point of view. So that’s really exciting. And today, which countries are the key players in this? Well, the key player, I mean, I guess the thing that’s interesting is that it’s everyone has agreed this treaty. So we need 60 countries to have ratified. And so far, the real champions have been the small island developing states, who are the kind of the countries that are at the front line of the climate emergency have in most part, done the least to contribute to the ocean crisis. But yeah, are on the front line because of rising sea levels and things like this, and also have a great connection to the ocean, so they have kind of been our champions throughout. But then there are countries. You know, the European Union played a really big role in negotiations. The European Union has approved ratification, and now all of the member states need to ratify. The Africa group is also.
So a major kind of grouping that we really need to kind of show leadership on the treaty as well. But I guess in the UN there’s country groupings, and it’s kind of everyone, and there are players within all of the country groupings that are important. And what does ratify exactly mean? Again, sorry, it’s really, really technical language, so it’s kind of UN speak for a country signing it into law. So basically, all countries have different processes to approve the treaty and kind of sign up to it. So we need them to do that, and in many cases, that means legislation is needed. It needs to go through through a parliamentary procedure or a congress procedure. And there are different ratification processes in every country. So that’s the kind of challenge. And the complication of the next phase is that we need more.
Why does it take some countries so long to ratify? What are they doing? The thing with the treaty is it is actually very complicated, and it might affect lots of different government departments. So whilst it’s really exciting that we’ll be protecting the ocean, there will also be parts of the treaty that might influence defence or information sharing or things like this. So what is Greenpeace’s role in the ocean treaty?
So Greenpeace has been working on the treaty for many, many years with allies, and what we often are doing is so we have campaigners across the world who are speaking to their governments, getting Intel and feeding it back to us, and we can kind of work out how we’re doing all different types of advocacy to try and get the treaty over the line, and also communicating with the public and ensuring that this is kind of kept high on The political agenda. Because I guess the risk at the moment is that it will slip down the political agenda with other things that are happening in the world. But momentum is really, really important. And also we’re trying to protect 30% of the ocean by 2030 which is the target that everyone has signed up to be doing. And therefore we really, really don’t have time. And the risk is that we’ll also run out of time, because momentum is slipping. Everyone has said, This is great, but, you know, I’ve got other things to be doing. So it’s really making sure that countries are hearing that, you know, the public are really, really into making sure that this, this treaty, gets over the line, and they really care about ocean protection. And what we’re also been doing when we did this year, we’ve been visiting some of the sites that we think should be protected by the Treaty once it enters into force.
Because I guess another thing about running out of time is that we need to ratify the treaty, but we also need countries to be thinking about which sites need to be protected on the high seas. This will all take a lot of time, because the science will be needed for working out the sites will need to consult on lots of different people, lots of different stakeholders in those sites. So a lot of kind of public support, and a lot of like support needs to be done. So there’s a lot of advocacy on the sites, as well as trying to push for ratification as quickly as possible. So there are two things that are happening kind of at the same time. And Greenpeace is, I mean, we’ve been going with our ships to these places to kind of highlight how amazing they are, and try and do as much science as we can, or kind of work out what’s needed to ensure that countries can start championing them. And I speak directly to the governments to say, oh, have you thought about championing this one? And you know, you also want to ensure that it’s not just one country that’s championing them, other countries are going to support them. Because when you think about the climate COPs, you know COP 2026 are happening. We’re going to have COP one for the oceans. So it’s the start of a whole new process which is really, really exciting. Can you just quickly explain what the 30 by 30 target is? Again, in december 2022 all countries in a different process. There are so many different processes and technical issues that I understand that it’s very, very hard to follow. But all countries agreed to a target to protect 30% of land and sea by 2030 if you do the maths, you can’t get to 30% of the oceans by 2030 if you don’t use the treaty that we have agreed that we’re talking about now. So it’s really, really important that kind of countries put that front and centre, and the 30% protected. It’s also agreed by scientists that this is kind of the minimum that we need to be doing, to be protecting, to ensure the ocean can, like, re heal itself in a way, and kind of ensure that there’s resilience against all of the kind of threats that we’ve talked about in the face of climate change. So that’s what’s really, really inspiring, that countries have signed up to doing this, but it is going to be a challenge, and it’s going to be a lot of hard work. So we really do need countries to lean it, and I think into working together on this. Now, you mentioned public support there a few times. What can the public actually do to help Greenpeace? Well, I mean, really, if you really care about the ocean, it’s really engaging with your decision makers. I think.
Don’t get, you know, politicians get a lot of competing priorities that they have to prioritise if you’re elected, if you if they’re elected by you, the people they are supposed to be representing your interests. And therefore, if you write to your MP or kind of go and meet your MP, this is in the UK, because I’m a UK citizen, but obviously this is true across the world. You should be engaging as much as you can within the processes that you have if you live in a democracy. Does that make a difference? Though, I really does. So actually, a couple of weeks ago, I was in parliament with Greenpeace UK politics team, and they were all coming to us, and they all showed up, and they were saying, my constituents have messaged me, saying I should come to this because, because they care about the environment. So here I am, what do you want me to do? I was like, Okay, that’s good. That’s great. Like, please, can you like progress the ratification of the treaty? And they were like, okay, yeah, I’ll see what I can do. And, yeah, I mean, and there were one or two conversations that we had which were really, really inspiring, and they said that they will kind of work within the parliamentary processes that we have to try and kind of push this along, they’re going to speak to the right decision makers. Because, I guess it’s all about power, and who has the power and who has the who can make the decisions. And when you’re doing a political campaign and thinking about that, it’s like working out which voices you want to be highlighting and which voices you want to possibly be neutralising or over a decision maker to kind of get them to do something. So MPs are really, really important because they are in the same party, and they want to push the decision maker to get this done. So that’s definitely something that the public can do, is speak to their MP This is the great thing about elections, as well as there are a whole new group of MPs who are all very excited and ready to kind of represent their constituents, and they want to know what you care about. So when there’s just an election, it’s definitely the best time to engage and kind of introduce yourself to your new MP and and try and speak to them about things. So in an election, there’s so many other things on the agenda, isn’t there? You know, like healthcare, costs of living. How difficult is it for Greenpeace to get oceans up there. So people are talking about it. There are always going to be kind of lot of things that politicians are going to be hearing about. And it’s really making the case that the oceans is not an isolated thing, that ocean is kind of all of us. And when people care about climate and nature, they’re also caring about the oceans. I guess it is going to be much easier if the MP that you’re talking about or talking to is going to be representing a coastal constituency, because it might feel a bit close to them, but it’s not too difficult to really show how, because people really, really care about the oceans, and people really care about, you know, the creatures that are in the oceans, that there’s so much imagination that comes from the oceans, and people really resonate With that, even if they’re not living by the sea. And people love going to the sea. So it is, it isn’t too difficult to kind of really capture. I guess it’s putting it in the heart when there are other things that happening, is the challenge. But it is also about kind of demonstrating what can be achieved if you protect the ocean. There can be so much more like this, things like food security, there’s things like economic growth that you can get if you’re protecting the ocean and not destroying it. And there’s obviously looking like a leader on the world stage, and no one wants to look like they’re the ones that are destroying the oceans. It isn’t too difficult to do that from that perspective, just because of how much the ocean resonates with the public. So that’s what we find when we’re talking to politicians. People really, really care about the oceans. That actually brings me on to my next question I was going to ask you, has ocean policy been critical for any country’s elections? I would possibly say, I don’t want to overstate the extent to which that it has been. I think climate and nature as a whole definitely has been more than it had in the past, because people are concerned about the climate emergency a lot more than they have done in the past. We have a lot more evidence at the effects, and it’s starting to affect people where they live, floods and things like this across the world. So I would say climate and nature in general, but people also really care about their government being leaders on the world stage, I think, in terms of international diplomacy. So then Greenpeace, and people who work on this policy can then, therefore go to the countries and say, Oh, well, you know, people care about how we’re seen on the world stage. This is a really good opportunity for you to do that. And it also the treaty, as I say, it’s not particularly controversial because it is very well celebrated across the world. So it’s a really good opportunity for governments to be doing things, but I would not possibly say that it has been really front and centre, which is a shame.
And how does an election year affect the progress these countries are making towards ratification. Would you say it can have a good outcome? So for example, in the European Parliament, they actually put forward ratification earlier than they would have done otherwise, which is really, really massive. So for context, the treaty is a mixed agreement in the European Union and with the European member states who.
Played a massive role in the treaty, getting the Treaty of the line, and will play a massive role going forward. The European Parliament needed to approve ratification so that the member states can all, all ratify. And they knew that the European Parliamentary elections were coming down the line, and the commissioner in the EU was very, very supportive of the treaty. And they kind of thought, you know, the European Parliamentary elections are coming down the line, we think there could be a far right influence, and there could be more far right MEPs coming in, which actually kind of did happen. And therefore we should make sure that the treaty which is kind of well supported by this parliament gets through, and that actually did happen. So that is an example of it being a really good opportunity when there’s an election to kind of progress things. However, in some instances, it has led to delay, like in France, and what is the timeline of the treaty? So we really, really need 60 ratifications by June 2025, and there’s going to be a big UN conference where we will all be really keeping an eye to ensure that we will get there. Because if we don’t get there, because of how long these things take. We put the 3030 target in jeopardy, and that’s something that everyone is signed up for. And I have a lot of hope that and quiet confidence that countries will keep to this timeline, because of how bought in everyone is to making sure that we protect the ocean by 2030 so the timelines are, you know, we still have a lot of technical things to set up, and we really need countries to be so the next few years it will be like, there’ll be, hopefully a COP one in 2026
and then it’s going to be COP two all the way up until 2030 but in all of these COP are going to be really, really important that countries are putting forward these sites that we can protect The oceans, because the sites are so important for resilience in the face of climate change, and at the same time we’re asking, well, asking. We’re demanding countries to be cutting their climate emissions to making sure that we stick to the timelines to get to net zero by 2050, it’s really, really important that we also kind of protect nature at the same time. So we touched a bit on protecting the high seas. What is the pathway for governments to actually do that? So once the treaty is entered into force, countries will be able to put forward plans for the next raft of ocean sanctuaries, and we need this to protect 30% of the ocean by 2030 so the countries will need to group together around sites and put forward at the first Conference of Parties for the for the new ocean Treaty, which should be in place in 2026
and the countries will need to group together to champion these sites. They need to be consulting with various stakeholders, indigenous people, the fishing bodies, that they might have some say over over the site in question scientists, but they and they need to be putting forward these sites for consideration for the new Conference of Parties. So in terms of what will actually happen, the site will be put in place. So hopefully there could be voting. There could it could just go through, and then hopefully, by 2030 we’ll have an amazing network of ocean sanctuaries across the high seas. What’s also really important a part of the treaty is that in the rest of the 70% there’s a different part of the treaty which will have more accountability on any kind of actions that are happening in the high seas as well. So when a company or when a country wants to do some activity on the high seas which could potentially be damaging, there will be a lot more loops that they’ll have to jump through to ensure that that they can prove they won’t be damaging, otherwise they won’t be allowed to do it. So that’s really exciting as well. So we should be getting a whole host of new marine protected areas and opportunities to campaign on them as well, to kind of push governments to to putting them forward as well. Can you give us some examples of some specific places that be protected? So Greenpeace is is looking at certain sites in the high seas. One of them is called the Sargasso Sea, which screen peace visited recently in our ship the Arctic Sunrise to show how amazing that that site is. It’s a kind of Gaia in the North Atlantic with amazing Sargassum mats, which hold loads of oxygen and can really help us with the climate emergency from that perspective. So the Sargasso Sea is a really important site that we want the UK to be protecting. In the North Pacific, there’s a site called the Emperor sea mounts, which is an amazing underwater mountain range. And there’s also a site between Australia and New Zealand called the Lord how rise and the Tasman Sea. And that’s also a kind of really amazing site that we need to be protected. But basically we need to get 30% protection. And we need these sites to be the most ecologically important that we need to have a network. It needs to be science driven, and we need the countries to kind of be really putting this forward. Now you have to have hope, and you have to continue to doing it, and you have to continue to try and engage as much as possible, because if you don’t have hope, then nothing is going to change. And we live in a democracy, and they are supposed to represent us, and if they don’t listen to us, then we make them listen to.
Hannah Stitfall 25:00
Was exactly that. Thank you so much.
I’m excited to welcome back two familiar voices to the podcast who have already joined us this series to talk about the fishing industry. Jessica Aldred is the ocean editor of Pulitzer, and Risha sale is an investigative journalist at Greenpeace, unearthed, and they are here once again to talk about the 30 by 30 plan.
So why is nothing getting done right now in the oceans?
Richa Syal 25:35
That’s a big question. There’s a lot to start I mean, at the moment, our oceans are under so many different pressures from many different industries, and there are a lot of accumulating factors, whether it’s between oil and gas operations, intense shipping activities, industrial fishing, there’s a whole range of threats that we’re currently seeing across all of our global oceans, I would say, I think it’s a vested interests thing that often slows up progress, but I also think it’s a case of international priorities. And, you know, we know that here in the UK, there’s huge struggles with the cost of living and economy, and unfortunately, I think that tends to come first. There’s also been huge changes in governments and elections in, you know, pretty much every country of the world this year, and I think that that slows down progress towards ratification of a lot of these treaties. So the 30 by 30 plan aims to protect 30% of the world’s oceans by 2030 it’s a major goal for conservation efforts. Now, Jessica, how would you assess the progress being made towards this goal currently, and are we on track?
Hannah Stitfall 37:40
John,
So John, could you explain a little bit for our listeners what your role entails?
John Hocevar 38:14
Sure it’s a mix of kind of, you know, some management, and fortunately for me, some more hands on stuff. So I oversee our work on deep sea mining fisheries, which is the intersection of environmental abuses and also human rights and labour abuses and the tuna fleet. We are working on creating a global network of ocean sanctuaries and ending plastic pollution. So all simple stuff. Do you like having a really difficult job? John, you know, there are days when I would not really mind having a job that was a little easier. But yes, generally speaking, I am pretty happy feeling like I’m fighting the good fight. Yeah, feeling like we are chipping away at and sometimes just sweeping away some of the big problems that we all face. And what is it about the ocean specifically that inspires you to do the job you do and to make a difference? You know, we live on the water planet, and it’s easy to forget if you don’t live right by the ocean, it’s easy to forget how connected we are to the environment. Maybe, if you’re like most of us, you live in a city, but it’s not just, you know, saving the fish and the dolphins. It all really connects to us. For example, with plastic, we put so much plastic into our world at this point, we’re breathing it, we’re eating it, we’re drinking it, and it’s in the soil. And if nothing else, that should remind us, like we we’re not separate from the environment. This isn’t some other thing that, oh, you care about the environment. It’s like, that’s where we live, that’s who we are. So for me, it’s partly that, and also, just since I was a little kid, the first time my parents brought me to the ocean when I was.
Jessica Aldred 26:49
No, I would say we’re very far from on track. And I think there’s, there’s two levels of this, so there’s 30% which is that’s a that’s a big that’s a big target. I think we’re up to about 8% at the moment. But then when you drill down into that, I think it’s less than 3% which has the full level of protection. And I think that’s the real crux of the issue, which is you could have countries protecting half of the Pacific, and that would look great. But I think what we’re seeing is there’s a lot of trends of so called Paper parks, where they will create a big area that looks amazing on paper, but then actually they will continue to allow exploitation. So, you know, exploration for oil and gas, industrial fishing. So really, you know, you could, you could make up the numbers, but the question is, what level of protection is? Is that at and I think, you know, just we were talking at the beginning about progress being stalled because there’s lots of elections and changes of government. I think there’s some really interesting things happening around, you know, particularly in places like Canada, where traditional knowledge is being used to protect these areas, and then they’re kind of doing it in in hand, in hand with the with the indigenous communities. And that that is really important as well, is to kind of bring people along together and not do this kind of, I don’t know, Neo colonialism, thing of imposing a protected area and then telling the people that live there that they can’t do any fishing anymore. So I think, you know, it’s great to look at the numbers and the targets, but it’s really the devil is in the detail.
Hannah Stitfall 28:18
And Rita, from your perspective, are governments taking 30 by 30 seriously? Yes, and
Richa Syal 28:24
no. I mean, governments have formally committed to 30 by 30, like the UK, but as Jessica mentioned, there’s a lot of risk of paper parks, which is, yeah, they’re designated as marine protected areas. But what is really going on within these boundaries? I can give you two examples just from my own reporting last year. One story that I did looked at this batch of newly approved oil and gas licences that were issued by the UK by the previous administration. I looked at where those licences would be in the North Sea, and found that more than a quarter of them would be within marine protected areas, and this is already in addition to all of the existing oil and gas operators that are working day in and day out within marine protected areas. The second thing I looked at last year was what the industry calls routine spills or chronic oil leaks. Imagine you just forget to fully turn off your water tap, and you get a constant drip, drip, drip of water. But in this case, it’s oil, and these are operational. They’re part of the day of the job. And you know, operators are supposed to record the volume of oil that spills out. In these instances, I took a decade’s worth of that data, again, mapped where those spills would be, and more than half of them were in marine protected areas. So when we talk about protected areas that are meant to really safeguard against threatened habitats and marine ecosystems, it really does beg the question, what’s the point? If we’re still. Main what does that mean and why? Why would we call them protected areas if we’re allowing this level of activity? Super trawlers are allowed within marine protected areas in the UK, on top of a lot of other pressures that we’ve been talking about. And it’s really difficult to wrap your head around this 30 by 30 initiative, because it sounds great. It’s a wonderful worldwide initiative. It’s a massive commitment, and we deserve to do it justice. It’s, for me, a well managed MPA marine protected area serves as a barrier from those things. And you know, if you’re designating a boundary where you know that, for example, overfishing is a big issue, but you’re not instigating any fishing bans in part or in full, or any strict quota limits, then you’re not getting to the heart of the issue, and you’re not addressing the main threats to that protected area. And they’re supposed to be protected for a reason. These are vital areas where there are critical marine species that are in need of protection. So
Hannah Stitfall 31:03
in the years that you’ve both worked in this sector within ocean conservation, what is the most shocking story that you’ve worked on that really, I mean, you said, then you want, you want the readers and we want the listeners and the viewers of TV. We want them to be like, Oh, my God, that cannot happen. What was the moment for you in a story you worked on that was like, Wow, I can’t believe this is happening. We have to stop it. There’s probably a few.
Jessica Aldred 31:30
I just think the deep sea mining. It’s just when, when I first started writing about it in 2019 I could not believe that there’s this massive thing which is about to happen that affects everyone that we all have a stake in. We all you know these areas that they want to mine is the common heritage of mankind. In brackets mankind, humankind, that they belong to all of us. And these riches are going to be exploited and shared by corporations when you know who is going to get all of the benefits of this. But what I couldn’t believe was that these negotiations are happening now, and, you know, the person walking past on the street has no idea about this, and it affects everyone, and it’s so it’s so huge. I think that’s one of the most interesting topics. That’s and I just think there’s so many interesting parts of the debate to go into that it’s, it’s never ending. I
Richa Syal 32:20
did a lot of reporting in the Middle East because I was living out there. There’s a common trend in both the shipping and fishing industry called Seafarer abandonment, and that happens as a result of a company going bankrupt, and they can’t continue their operations, and they just really, literally have to abandon their vessel somewhere. And a lot of the times, these vessels get abandoned in the Middle East because those ports are just available and for a number of other reasons. And I remember looking into this quite a bit a number of years ago, and there was just one example of a vessel that I saw was abandoned at a port, and the crew members on that vessel were quite literally stuck on that vessel. These are crew members from different parts of the world, India, Southeast Asia, somewhere in West Africa, they don’t have the right visas to enter this particular country, so they cannot step foot on land in this country, where their vessel has been abandoned, and there was no word from their ship owners. There was no word from their captain who fled, and there’s no food, there’s no medication, there’s no access to health care. There’s they’re really they’re pleading for help. And the case that I was reading into and looking into, they some of these crew members, they got so desperate that they were drinking the water from the air conditioning unit on the vessel. And this is just a small sliver of the type of conditions that these Fisher folk that work on these vessels are subject to, and they range from just inhumane to absolutely horrific. And we have a lot of colleagues in common that have done a lot of impressive and important work on the human rights abuses at sea. I think we’d be remiss if we did not at least mention that as a very real threat.
Hannah Stitfall 34:04
So working within the media, of course, you know, we all have responsibility to get these stories out there. For both of you, how important do you think the role of media and journalism is within ocean conservation? I just
Jessica Aldred 34:21
think it’s so I think it’s so critical. I think it has this dual thing of, you know, inspiring wonder and awe at the, you know, the amazing array of species that we know about and all of the ones that we don’t know about, that we are yet to discover. And I really think our role is to just educate and inform people about, you know, they are these, all these topics that we’ve talked about are incredibly complex. You can’t just distil it into an easy sound bite, and there’s a lot of nuance in there. And I think it’s up to journalists to really try to explain these incredibly complex issues, but also link what is going on in your backyard to something that is at an international governance level. So I think you. It’s very much about sort of illuminating and inspiring and hoping that those stories will inspire some sort of action or campaign or awareness or real kind of policy change. Yeah,
Richa Syal 35:10
that really is the challenge, isn’t it? Is to get people to care. And one of the things that I guess we both find as investigative journalists is, how do we get people to realise that this is not some distant problem that is far away from them. You know, these are happening very close by to them, in their own neighbouring countries, or the closest bodies of water to them, and that’s always been the issue. But it’s it. It’s a great challenge to face as a journalist, and oceans reporting is such a fascinating topic. I mean, I remember the first time I first got into oceans reporting, and what my first story was, and I’m sure Jessica does too, and it really just sucks you in. Because if you’re thinking, My goodness, if this is already happening in one little subset of this world, what else is happening on the rest of our waters? And it does inspire a lot of awe, and it does inspire a lot of shock and outrage. And for me as an investigative journalist, that’s kind of my benchmark. If I’m not personally outraged at what’s happening, how can I expect my readers or listeners to be outraged as well? And unfortunately, this we just covered the tip of the iceberg of some of the threats that we’re seeing. And I’m sure Hannah, you’re walking away thinking, Oh, this is horrible. There’s a lot going on down here, and it’s true. And our job is to really inform people as much as possible of what is happening and the sorts of government and corporate injustices that are happening as a result. It’s hard.
Hannah Stitfall 36:41
https://www.greenpeace.org/international/podcasts/74519/transcript-the-politics-of-ocean-protection/