Television Interview – Sky Sunday Agenda
KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Mr Albanese, Happy Easter to you. Happy Easter Sunday. Easter is a time of hope, of course. Do you still have hope that you can win the Voice referendum?
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: I certainly do. I have hope and faith in the generosity of the Australian people and that Australians, when they go into the ballot box, will cast their vote for ‘yes’. They will say yes to constitutional recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and they’ll say yes to consultation on matters that affect them so that we can close the gap between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australia in so many areas, like life expectancy, education, health and housing.
GILBERT: Can the referendum be won, though, without bipartisanship?
PRIME MINISTER: I think that Australia’s political system has changed substantially. Just a couple of weeks ago, in the Aston by-election, history was created with something that hadn’t happened in over a hundred years, the Government winning a seat off the Opposition in a by-election. So we live in different times from when past referendums were held. Of course, this is the first referendum that’s been held this century. And we know that referendums are difficult to pass. It’s something like eight out of 48 have passed. But the time has come. And as the Uluru Statement from the Heart said, ‘In 1967 we were counted, in 2017 we seek to be heard’. And I think that it is time to recognise First Nations people in our Constitution. And Australians will ask themselves, if not now, when?
GILBERT: Noel Pearson said late last week that he couldn’t sleep, haunted by Peter Dutton’s position. He called him Judas betraying Australia. Is there more you could have done to get the Liberal Party over the line to support this.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I tried very hard to not be prescriptive. I put a position, a draft statement, as part of my speech to Garma last July. And as the months rolled on, I met with Peter Dutton on no less than seven occasions, seeking information, seeking a way in which we could get that bipartisanship. At none of those meetings, or in the meetings that Peter Dutton held with the constitutional Referendum Working Group, was any suggested changes of wording that were put forward. I outlined a timetable last year that included introduction of legislation in March, a committee being established to examine that legislation over the subsequent six week period, and then debate in the House of Representatives in May, debate in the Senate in June, and then the referendum being held sometime between October and December. So I outlined the timetable and I outlined the process and I said that I was open to changes and discussion and dialogue. I had that discussion and dialogue with the Referendum Working Group, with Mr Dutton, with anyone who wanted to walk through my door. I was available. And the Opposition Leader, just two days after the Aston by-election result, called a sudden meeting of his caucus and determined that they would have a hard ‘no’ imposed on members of the Shadow Cabinet. Now that’s a decision that he made, not in consultation with Indigenous leaders or the Referendum Working Group or myself or the parliamentary committee. And that stands in contradiction from what he said, which was that he would participate in good faith in those processes. So he’s made his decision. We factored that in and we will just work to ensure that it does succeed. I will make this point, I think Peter Dutton has underestimated the number of Liberal and National Party voters who will show generosity and goodwill and who will vote ‘yes’ in this referendum. This isn’t about politicians. This is now about every Australian having one vote, one value. And I sincerely hope that we have a ‘yes’ vote in the referendum later this year.
GILBERT: Can you extend an olive branch to Peter Dutton now, though? Is it still not too late? Is there time for you to say, ‘OK, we could remove the words executive government if you come on board’? Is there a chance you might be able to offer that during this process. We know the parliamentary committee’s looking at it. Are you willing to compromise on that to get the bipartisanship that would boost the chances of the referendum?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Peter Dutton’s already declared his position. David Littleproud declared the position of the National Party last year. It is very hard for them to argue they’re participating in this committee process in good faith. They’ve already declared their position. And it’s a bit like saying that you’re going to run on the field in a footy game and just allow the other team, in this case the ‘no’ team, to just run through and score tries without trying to tackle them and trying to defend the ‘yes’ position. We’ll be out there advocating for a ‘yes’ vote. The issue of Parliament and executive government being able to have representations is one that Julian Leeser included as part of the process that he was a part of way back in 2014, so almost a decade ago. So this is not a new proposal. And what we’ve seen over recent months is Peter Dutton, in every one of his utterances, drawing doubt on constitutional reform, attempting to undermine the prospects of success, raising issues that are designed to create uncertainty and concern over what is really a very simple proposition. The proposition is recognition and consultation. That’s what it’s about. Consultation with Indigenous people on matters that affect them. And we know that when Indigenous Australians are consulted, we get better outcomes. The Voice isn’t the end, the Voice is the means to the end. The end that we’re after here is better outcomes for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in life expectancy, in educational outcomes, in health outcomes as well, in reducing the incarceration rate of Indigenous Australians. And we know through the Indigenous rangers program, through community health programs, through justice reinvestment, the work that the New South Wales Government have done in Moree and Bourke, on justice reinvestment, for example, have been a real success story, the work that Noel Pearson does in Cape York is part of a success story, the work in Arnhem Land of the Yolngu people with the leadership of the late, great Yunupingu are examples of where Indigenous people have that ownership and involvement, you do get better outcomes. And that’s what this is about.
GILBERT: But you could empower the Liberals that want to back it. There are, as you’ve said, you’ve alluded to them already today, Liberals that want to back it. And you could empower them by saying, ‘OK, we’ll remove executive government’, just to allay those concerns. Would you be open to doing that?
PRIME MINISTER: The legal opinions of people like Justice French, Justice Hayne, former judges, in Justice French’s case a former Chief Justice of the High Court, have made their views very clear that this is a legally sound proposition. Anne Twomey, perhaps Australia’s leading constitutional lawyer, has done the same. And the Liberal Party members like Bridget Archer will continue to campaign for ‘yes’. The Premier of Tasmania will be a strong advocate for ‘yes’, and in a bit over a week’s time I’ll be with him in Tasmania with Pat Farmer, a former Liberal member of the House of Representatives, who will be conducting a run around Australia to support the ‘yes’ campaign running something like 80 kilometres a day, every day, for months campaigning. We have here the business community, the faith groups, we have trade unions, we have sporting organisations, non-government organisations will all be out there campaigning for ‘yes’. This has never been about the politicians. This is about the people of Australia having a say and reaching out, accepting the gracious, generous offer of Indigenous Australians for constitutional recognition and consultation. And there’s no overreach here. The body that they’re asking for won’t be a funding body, it won’t run programs, it won’t have right of veto, it won’t interfere with the normal functioning of Parliament. The primacy of Parliament is ensured by this proposition. And that’s why I’m very confident that Australians will vote yes.
GILBERT: A recent poll suggested a dip in support in Queensland and that that could be the hold-out state. Annastacia Palaszczuk said in response to that poll, she said, ‘I think the Federal Government needs to really step up into that space and explain it and I’m quite sure that’s going to be coming’. She said, ‘I think people are after the detail and I can understand there would be some hesitancy’. Do you plan to ‘step up’, in Annastacia Palaszczuk’s words? And how will you do that, particularly in Queensland?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the first thing we’ll be doing is running an information campaign about the nature of referendums. The truth is that many Australians have never looked at their constitution, let alone considered a constitutional change. None of your listeners under the age of 40 have ever voted in a referendum. There hasn’t been one held this century. So it’s not surprising that there is a lack of consideration because people haven’t had that front and centre. But there is an enormous amount of detail out there already. What you have now is the proposal in the legislation, you also have a document with eight key principles put forward by the Referendum Working Group about the way that the Voice would operate. And I would encourage your listeners and Australians to have a look at the question which will be asked, which is simply this: ‘A Proposed Law: to alter the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. Do you approve this proposed alteration?’ That’s the question that people vote for. And then the detail is there in the constitutional change as well that’s being proposed, in recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people as the First Peoples of Australia. And then three clauses. That’s the recognition and then the how is, there shall be a body to be called the Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander Voice, the Voice may make representations to the Parliament and the executive government of the Commonwealth on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. And then the key clause as well, the third clause, the Parliament shall, subject to this constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures. So a very clear proposal before the Australian people, a clear proposal that has received such widespread support, as I said, across business, across the labour movement, across faith groups. This week I attended, on Wednesday night, an iftar, as part of breaking the fast with the Islamic community, coming together with strong support. And I know that at events around Australia this weekend, one of the things that will happen before AFL, NRL games, church services for Easter, is that you’ll have an acknowledgement of country showing respect for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and the fact that we share this great continent with them. And the fact that they’re the oldest continuous culture on earth should be something that we’re proud of and celebrate. And that’s really what constitutional recognition is about. It’s about celebrating that and also giving them a voice and consulting them on matters that affect them.
GILBERT: On the sport point that you made there, I just wanted to reference that because the timing here is sometime between October and December. We’ve got the NRL grand final, I know a great love of yours, many of our viewers are big AFL fans, NRL fans. To me it looks like a ready-made launch for the final weeks of the Voice campaign if you can get the likes of Latrell Mitchell, Buddy Franklin, these great Indigenous footballers, both codes, backing it as these major events. Is that how you see this working in the final stages of the Voice campaign, with those two big set piece events and the two codes that this nation loves?
PRIME MINISTER: Well of course, the football codes, both the NRL and the AFL, but also the Football Federation, or soccer as we more commonly call it here, rugby union, they’ve all been very supportive of Indigenous recognition for a long period of time. And even before then, of course, we’ll have the Indigenous rounds in both of those sports, which will be a celebration of Indigenous Australians and their contribution to those sports. I know from speaking to a number of the NRL and AFL players, both past and present, that they will be active in putting their views in support of constitutional recognition. And I expect that not just them, but Tennis Australia have been supportive, Cricket Australia, all of the sporting codes, the basketball organisation, Patty Mills has been out there campaigning.
GILBERT: Would you expect some big names?
PRIME MINISTER: I would expect that, it’s not for me to speak for them, but I would be surprised if you didn’t see a range of figures out there saying that it is time for recognition. And we need to bear in mind as well, for those who say, ‘Oh, we’ll just put it off until everyone in politics agrees’. Well, this now will be up to the Australian people. And if not now, when? People voted on a republic in Australia last century, at the end of the 1990s. And some of the people during that campaign, you’d recall, Kieran, saying, ‘Oh, well, I support the republic but I don’t support this particular model, I want to wait for something better’. Well, guess what? Something better hasn’t come around in their view. And that is an issue that’s not about to be changed anytime soon. So people have an opportunity here to seize this moment. It should be a moment of national unity. I certainly hope that it is. It’s one that will show we’re a more confident, forward-looking nation, that we are about our future, that we don’t leave people behind, that we are about reconciling and going forward together. And that is, to me, a positive thing. And I’m optimistic about the future for this great country. We need to be always looking forward to that future and helping to shape that future in a positive way. And one way we can do that is by recognising Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in our nation’s constitution.
GILBERT: Prime Minister, I know you’ve been very generous with your time. I have a few questions to wrap up. The concern about the Voice, I’ve got Barnaby Joyce on the program a little later. He’s saying, and many others have said it as well, called on the Government to release the Solicitor-General advice. Would you be willing to do that in the lead-up to the referendum? Is that something you’d do to just placate and ease people’s concerns?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the Solicitor-General’s advice, as Barnaby Joyce knows, I mean, he was a bloke who was Deputy Prime Minister twice. That was one show that shouldn’t have had a sequel, but it did. And he knows that while he served, they didn’t release his Cabinet advice to the Cabinet. But the Solicitor-General’s views are very clear of support for this change, that it’s legally sound. And through the process, he will, I’m sure, take the opportunity through the Attorney-General to make that position clear.
GILBERT: OK, so that’s interesting. A reassurance coming from the Solicitor-General at some point. And one of the giants in your party in this area of course is Pat Dodson. I know you were very emotional, and understandable given the gravity of the issue we’re talking about, with him when you announced the wording. He’s taken a leave of absence. What’s the latest you’ve got on your well-respected colleague?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Senator Dodson is of course seen as one of the fathers of reconciliation in this country. Patrick has some health issues that he has to deal with. That has to be a priority. So he’s taken indefinite leave and I’m sure, on behalf of all Australians, as well as my colleagues across the Parliament, Patrick Dodson is someone who is so widely respected. We just wish him all the best to overcome these health issues. He has indicated to me he’ll still be doing a few radio interviews and still certainly participating in the process as much as he can. But he won’t be able to travel because he has to prioritise getting that health treatment. And I wish him all the very best. He is just a great Australian.
GILBERT: And on behalf of all of us at Sky, I wish him all the best, a speedy recovery to Pat Dodson. And finally, a different issue, but one that’s of huge importance to our country. We’ve seen the drama in the United States, Trump continues to cause a lot of headlines. Does this worry you about the future of our AUKUS deal when you see the prospect of a possible Trump return?
PRIME MINISTER: No, look, our relationship with the United States is a relationship between nations, between peoples, not just between leaders. And Australia and the United States share common values. I work very closely with President Biden. And I’m very much looking forward to welcoming President Biden here to Australia in just, next month now that where we’re at Easter time, in May, for the Quad leaders’ meeting. He will be an honoured guest in our country.
GILBERT: Prime Minister, thanks. Happy Easter to you, Jodie and Nathan. Thanks for your time.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Kieran. And can I wish all of your listeners a Happy Easter. And for those people of faith as well, particularly of the Christian faith, it is a very holy time and I wish you a holy Easter as well.