Senator the Hon Malarndirri McCarthy
Senator McCarthy Speaks on NITV
JOHN PAUL JANKE, HOST: Minister, thanks for joining us, sitting down on a very busy day for you. I want to talk about Closing the Gap. You made some announceables this morning. What is the main achievement that you've seen over the last 12 months when it comes to Closing the Gap?
MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS: Lovely to be here with you, JP, thank you. Probably two levels for me. In terms of the Parliament, there's been enormous change in terms of the structure of the Parliament, and on another level, it's been about the consistent work very closely with the Coalition of Peaks, Pat Turner, but also with the Indigenous Affairs Ministers around the country. To me, those two levels were critical in the first 12 months of my time in this role, and I'll continue to do that. There is so much we've got to do. Today's announcement is really about the Commonwealth and what the Commonwealth and the Parliament here is doing. What we need to know is what the states and territories will do.
JOHN PAUL JANKE: Talking about achievements and success, if you see shared collaboration and partnerships as a success, what are you seeing has been sort of the biggest failure, or the area that you need to prioritise on over the next 12 months?
MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: The great challenge is the interaction with states and territories, clearly people come into parliaments in their respective jurisdictions, with particular policies. And my role, as the Commonwealth Minister in this, is to work out how to navigate the complexities of each of those parliaments and the laws that they bring in. In particular, around the targets of justice, where we see the incarceration rates still high, and also around the removal of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children in out of home care, which is also very high. Now, these are state and territory legislative frameworks, and my role at the Commonwealth level is to keep working with those state and territory parliaments to say, come on, we are still not seeing those numbers reduced.
JOHN PAUL JANKE: I'll get to talking about your relationship with state and territory governments in a minute. You mentioned, I think, when you got the portfolio, we had the chance to sit down and have a yarn that one of your priority areas would be to work across the Parliament, to reach out, to the Coalition and other parties, to work to really address the worsening stats for First Nations people. Do you think that that's been achieved? Given that, as recently as yesterday, the Coalition didn't support the legislation for the First Nations Children ambassador. Do you still think that there is a level of bipartisanship when it comes to Closing the Gap? Is that important, or are you just gonna go it alone?
MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: JP, it is tough. Human nature always says that sometimes you get along with people, and sometimes you don't. Put us in a context of a Parliament, where we have different values with our political party systems, you're always going to come up against some kind of opposition. I have found that in this role, one of the important values I hold dear is the ability to still try to reach out to people, irrespective of our differences. And that's what I use as part of my narrative, if you like, but also in the way that I operate. I work deliberately to try to work with people. And I do that because I think that the complete disadvantage, the utter despair, the high rates of suicide and incarceration rates demand us to be better. It demands each of us as parliamentarians to be better and to do better, so that we can improve the lives of our most vulnerable.
JOHN PAUL JANKE: But there's some differing views there on how you move forward in that process. In Senate Estimates this week the coalition was saying, look, it's actually about accountability. Make already funded organisations more accountable for the taxpayer dollars they get. Last election, the Coalition wanted a royal commission into sexual abuse in Indigenous communities. They want to bring back the basics card or the welfare card. So, there's some differing policies there. How do you go about negotiating?
MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: There will always be the different policies. I do believe, though, that we do have a very similar desire for an outcome, which is a better outcome for all people, but in this case, for First Nations families. And I stay focussed on that, and that's important to me. So, the way I do that is to have regular gatherings here in the Parliament, with crossbenchers, with my opposition in terms of the Coalition, and anyone else who wishes to participate around Closing the Gap, so that we can work through some of these differences, but at the same time, I'm briefing them as to what I'm doing. And they can feedback as to what's happening in their respective jurisdictions as well. It's not easy, but I do think that the Parliament has to be better, and by doing this, it's my way of opening that door to those who do think differently to me, that here we are, representatives of the Australian people, we must try to find a better way, even with our differences.
JOHN PAUL JANKE: Let's talk now about the actual Closing the Gap targets. You're on target to meet four. There's only four out of 19 of those targets that are on track to be met by 2031. Another one's sort of looking to be met later towards the year. That's sort of the same news every year, that it's only four out of 19. It doesn't seem to be a lot of improvement in the other areas. Does that worry you that year after year, it's sort of the same statistic?
MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Not at all. What we've done today is really show what we've done in the last 12 months at the Commonwealth level, and what we plan to do in the next 12 months. And so, whilst there are targets like justice and out of home care, which we know we have to work stronger with the states and territories on, the others are improving. There are six of those that are improving, and there are those that we're doing really well. With the land, the sea, in terms of Country and returning to Country, all of these things that are so important for First Nations families in the sense of self and identity. So, what we have to make sure, if we're going to keep improving in those areas where we are, we need the investment. And that's what today was about, is saying that in the areas where we can see, we are actually getting there, we've doubled the investment. We've doubled the number of remote jobs. We're going up to 6,000 now. We've doubled the number of that in the rangers, so we're going to double the number of rangers. I want 700 of those positions to be for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women. So, there's a gender parity that I'm really determined to also reach within this. I've got big plans here, and that is also because I have the support of my colleagues around the Cabinet table, and that is vital, because it has to be done with them. I cannot carry everything here in terms of, the Justice Minister needs to be involved, the Health Minister, the Education Minister, all of these other ministers, they hold the key to that support in those respective areas.
JOHN PAUL JANKE: One of the statistics that is going backwards is incarceration, particularly in the Northern Territory, Queensland, Victoria and New South Wales, you've got governments there that are being seen to be, have to be tough on crime, oppositions who are saying we need to be tougher on crime. Of course, a lot of that is directed at the incarceration of First Nations people. How do you work with those state governments who are working, getting tougher legislation that impacts Indigenous communities? How do you work with those state and territory governments? And how do you make them accountable to help close the gap?
MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Well, the Prime Minister said in his statement today that being in prison shouldn't be a rite of passage. And that's really an important key in all of this. We don't want our people incarcerated and thinking that's all that there is for them. So, it is important to continue to work with the states and territories. I met with the Attorneys-General around the country and emphasised this, with the support of the federal Attorney-General, that they have the levers to make a difference. What we do at the Commonwealth level is invest in justice reinvestment. We are seeing real goals in the area of justice reinvestment, with the programs we fund around the country, and they are programs that try to keep people out of prison or find alternate programs so that they don't end up there. So, if they're working in those respective state and territories, what I'm saying to those parliaments is look at what's working in your state and territory. Use it and emulate it across the jurisdiction.
JOHN PAUL JANKE: You spoke last year about potentially financial penalties for state governments and territory governments that aren't meeting those targets. When do you think there is a time for those penalties to be implemented or are those discussions to be had?
MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: The framework, in terms of the federal funding agreements, go right across all different ministerial portfolios. So, I have raised that. I would like to see what we can do in terms of those agreements. Those agreements are in place for a couple of years. The one that I'm working on immediately, though, is the Northern Territory Remote Aboriginal Investment, NTRAI, and that is where I'm pushing for the Closing the Gap targets to be actually a part of how we reach that agreement.
JOHN PAUL JANKE: Today, you announced new investment in food subsidies, for basic foods available to remote communities. As we've travelled around the country, people are saying that that's all well and good but we need investment in infrastructure. Like power infrastructure. Certainty on the power doesn't go out. So, the food that we do buy doesn't get spoiled. Is that something that you'll look at that, in particular, there are communities in Australia that don't have power security, telecommunications security, that that impacts their day to day lives. Is that something that the government will be looking at?
MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Look, we're conscious of that wherever we go. It may be infrastructure, it may be power and water. Water's a big one too, in places like Central Desert, in parts of Queensland, in Woorabinda for example, we've had to invest in these places where water quality is an absolute must for all of us, but what about those who are on dialysis? Who want dialysis on Country? So, we are very acutely aware of all of these other issues outside of the Store Resilience package. And so, we invest in those, in the Northern Territory for example, we provide almost 80% of their funding in terms of right across, for all Territorians. So, we do recognise and we'll continue to work, in the areas that require it.
JOHN PAUL JANKE: The targets are towards 2031, which is five years away. The Albanese Government is in power for two more years. Another election, potentially another three years. So, that'll take you up to the end date of the National Agreement. If we still are at four out of those 19 targets are only being met, it's got to be considered a failure. Who is ultimately responsible for that failure, if there is a failure?
MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Well, that's a hypothetical. I feel very humbled to even be in this position in the last one and a half years. I never really thought I would be. All I know is that I'm determined to do the best that I can, and we have a Prime Minister in this country who's determined not to fail. And between the two of us and the rest of the country, let's hope we can achieve that.
JOHN PAUL JANKE: Today, of course, is all about Closing the Gap and the life expectancy of First Nations people. We had a couple of members of the Stolen Generation here for tomorrow's National Apology anniversary. Some amazing people who have seen some absolutely horrific policies in their lifetime. What inspiration do you draw from them when you see them here together as a happy family, knowing that the history that they've been through?
MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: It was wonderful to have our Elders here and I was keen to make sure we hosted them well. They've travelled a long way, and not just physically to get here from all over the country, but they've travelled a long way in their own personal stories and journeys. And to listen to Aunty Ruthie talk about her journey, from Queensland, 97 years of age. How inspiring, but also to learn from them that resilience and determination and never give up, these are values that I think we can all take away from them. But also, I think, the realisation that the policies that we as policymakers around the country put together, we have to always be conscious of the impact it has on others.
JOHN PAUL JANKE: Minister, thanks for sitting down and having a chat with us.
MALARNDIRRI MCCARTHY: Thank you.
https://ministers.pmc.gov.au/mccarthy/2026/television-interview-nitv
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